Has the Sumac been 'non-intentionally' hijacked?

Published: March 18, 2013 15:50 by Relative outsider

Not been heavily involved in the Sumac for some time so can't comment on whether or not it's been 'taken over' but I assume it is still run by a group of volunteers. So maybe the author of the post could get involved if they want to see things changed?

Published: March 18, 2013 16:02 by t

The "art" which was being displayed and which was requested to be taken down consisted of numerous swastikas. To claim that these were not "political materials" is absurd.

To claim that the sumac has been hijacked also verges on absurd and alarmist. Yes, there are very few people involved in the day to day running of the centre - but none of those people seem very happy about it and would certainly appreciate help, the bar collective being a case in point. Yes, the sumac also has a sometimes deserved reputation for cliqueishness. This is something we need to address, but the question is how? Its been flagged as an issue for many years now, and did certainly not arise with just the current group of people looking after the centre.

To blame one individual for all problems objective and subjective is ridiculous. There are some negative social dynamics around the centre, but these are not the responsibility of a single person, it falls to all of us who use the place to challenge dominating attitudes in ourselves and others when they arise. The pattern usually seems to be that when aggressive or dominating behaviour is ignored, resentments fester, but when it is challenged the issues are generally resolved amicably.

I'm really sorry that you feel this way. I'm also really sorry that you feel unable to use more appropriate fora to raise these issues. The admin meeting on the first monday of every month is an open meeting, and anyone can ask to be added to the sumac admin email list. There's been a lot of healthy debate on the list recently, with quite a number of people feeling able to air their views.

On Saturday the 30th of March at 11:00 there is an event called Open Space, which should be a good opportunity to discuss the sumac and the culture around it. I hope we can have some productive debate there about how we move forward from the situation we're in.

Published: March 18, 2013 16:03 by Anon

I have been involved with the Sumac Centre on & off since it's founding & with members from the days of the Rainbow Centre.

This is something that i have been saying is a problem for several years, I myself have experienced the 'down the nose' behaviour & criticism from a centre that supposedly is based on equality.

As a result it is rare that i will go there these days unless there is a particularly good event on.

I feel that this is such a shame as the centre has so much potential within the local & wider community, but unfortunately has never seemingly been able to see further than the end of it's nose.

Although it still does many good things & should not be condemned, the core people in all the groups involved really do need to take an outsiders critical view of themselves & stop alienating other likeminded people in Nottingham

Published: March 18, 2013 16:18 by Pat

I hope that this article can be discussed in a positive way, without recriminations or the airing of personal grudges, either against other Sumacians or against other contributors to Indymedia.

We can rise above that, and be grateful that concerns have been raised that we may not have been aware of, or have hesitated to tackle.

This is only a personal response. I wouldn't attempt to reply on behalf of Sumac itself, as Sumac is made up of many groups and individuals, some of whom are able to engage in the day to day running of the place and some who are not able to do so.

It is perhaps the nature of things that Sumac has always relied on a small group of committed supporters to take on the daily grind of running what may be one of the longest established and well respected centres of its type in the UK. There are others in the network, which play a similarly awesome role in their own communities and who face their own trials and tribulations from time to time.

I am sure that this isn't the first time that those actively involved have seemed like a clique (me included), but from my personal perspective I believe that there is a genuine aim at the moment to engage in making Sumac more open and inclusive. Clearly this isn't gonna be an easy process, as hundreds of people use the place, each with a unique perspective on what is or should be for.

It is also not the first time that that involvement has been reflected by the activities taking place at the Centre. However brief scan of the Sumac Diary (http://www.sumac.org.uk/diary.htm) will show the current diversity of activities. It also shows that on the first Monday of each month there is an open meeting for those willing to (attempt to) get involved. I know that meetings can be a chore but, unbelievably, recent ones have have actually been fun! It may be a recognised failing that other means of raising concerns are lacking, but perhaps constructive dialogue here on Indymedia might be helpful.

I'd like to think that the person making the original posting has done so from a genuine wish to be supportive, and I hope that other responses will also be helpful.

.pat.

Published: March 18, 2013 16:26 by Polar Bear

If the author of this post is referring to a specific case of censorship that they have been made aware of it would be helpful if they could say so, instead of making vague allusions. This would help people to come to their own conclusions about what may have happened. It would also be easier for those involved in running the sumac to address people's concerns if we knew what those concerns actually were.

There are issues with the power dynamics at the sumac centre, as there will always be with any project that attempts to function in an open and non-hierarchical way. I don't believe that the best way to resolve those issues is by trading gossip and inuendo. Nor is using emotive words like 'guru' particularly helpful or constructive.

If anyone wants to be involved in decision making at the sumac, or just wants to see how we deal with the nuts and bolts of running the place, we have an open admin meeting on the first monday of every month at 7.30pm. The minutes of these meetings are kept in print in the sumac and are available for anyone to read if they want to. If you're not comfortable with meetings you can send us an email or come and talk to us in person with any questions, concerns or ideas.

Published: March 18, 2013 19:30 by Concerned Comrade

Ok, first off, it is easier to raise this issue in so much of a way that will hopefully be a catalyst for self-criticism and analysis from the core groups of people involved in the running of the Sumac, than by turning up at a meeting and raising it as I am at the moment not prepared to get involved as I have been involved in stuff before and it has basically hit a wall. The reason people have complained to me is that they know I will listen and try to understand and I wrote the original article as a way of beginning the inner-analysis that is evidently needed, even the above comments are evidence enough that there is some fire here, not just smoke.

Second, it is fair to say that one person is not solely responsible for the ‘complaints’ although it is one persons name that keeps ‘cropping up’ when complainers are asked ‘who said that?’ or ‘who’s opinion was that?’ or ‘who are you beefing with on this issue?’ The same name comes round every time.

Third, yes slightly alarmist sounding and I will admit that was simply to get attention on an often crammed and rightly-so-busy newsreel and that is why the title was ‘non-intentionally’ hijacked as I know people have not planned or conspired to make it the way it is nowadays. I understand that much.

However, as the above comment ‘agreed’ states, this ‘down the nose attitude’ has given rise to an ‘us and them’ vibe at the Sumac, the ‘us’ being the people that don’t necessarily agree with anti-authoritarians, and 'them' who for whatever reasons, seem to be those that mostly make up the core of bar workers and meeting facilitators. That is my own observation and the observation of others.

I know that anarchists are some of the most on it when it comes to getting things done and that is fine, but still it is the same names cropping up.

Therefore when people are saying ‘such and such is looking down there nose at me about such and such subject’ they are essentially saying that core group, which has a very academically and politically savvy ‘guru’ in its midst. Guru is simply a word I heard banded around recently when people were discussing this and thought it actually does ring slightly true as people do often look to those with more academic and political knowledge of tactics and experiences, say for consensus building or newsletter designing, for example, to lead the way.

One person in particular is cropping up as being a kind of ‘inadvertent leader’ of the core group as it seems that person is the one that does most of the ‘looking down the nose’ and finger pointed at others for their own views and their own art or their own politics, which does have a place in their own life.

And it may have been such a controversial piece of art as a swastika, but on many levels it is not the point. Not least as it is an ancient symbol that was appropriated by Hitler for his crack-pot reasons and now in the modern day, especially amongst punks and alternative types, it has been expropriated from Nazis as a very unique geometric form.

And anyway, what is on display in someone’s private space is of no concern to anybody else…that is why I alluded to anarcho-cops. Because we see that snooping activity from real cops and it is that kind of stuff that makes us not trust cops.

Anyway, as I said at the bottom of the article, this is about encouraging self-analysis by those at the core of Sumac, self-criticism, analysis of attitude towards new comers for example, or non-anarcho’s or the question of butting into the business of those in the housing co-ops in the area….

Get the self-criticism going, is what I say…

And to Pat and others, this is in no way simply targeting one person for the sake of it, this has been an on going vibe for years. And it is also not to distract away from the amazing work that campaigns and other groups have done from under the Sumac umbrella.

Published: March 18, 2013 19:35 by Concerned Comrade

1 - i accept this is not necessarily the best forum to get this thing going but now it will hopefully be tackled within Sumac

and 2 - the person who had art censored is not really well known to me, so i dont know their true reasons for having it, simply the story filtered through to me after I initially over heard it being discussed recently and the censorship pissed me off enough to write the original article.

Published: March 19, 2013 02:12 by t

1. You're not prepared to get involved in the struggle to make the Sumac achieve its potential, and yet you are happy to shout abuse from the sidelines. Have you been following the course of events over the last few months since the visioning meeting, when many of these issues were discussed? I doubt it. The self-analysis has been on-going for quite some time. The atmosphere around the centre has been far more positive in recent months as a result. This post is not helping that process - it has pushed over-worked, under-appreciated people closer to throwing up their hands and walking away.
You perceive a "them and us" situation, and yet your solution is to sit back and expect "them" to deal with it - what about "us" (you)?

2. The (very few) people who run the bar are not authoritarians. That's one of the most bizarre accusations I've ever heard - do you know who you're talking about?

3. "Guru is simply a word I heard banded around recently when people were discussing this and thought it actually does ring slightly true as people do often look to those with more academic and political knowledge of tactics and experiences, say for consensus building or newsletter designing, for example, to lead the way." - Guru is an extremely charged word which suggests a slavish and unthinking relationship on the part of the "followers". Its extremely insulting. From your definition above, what you're actually talking about is leadership, which naturally occurs in most social groups. You've picked your hyperbolic language specifically to upset people.

4. I suggest you get your facts straight before getting on a high horse about censorship. It was a shit situation which no-one wanted to be in. And whilst you might not think it problematic that someone displays Nazi symbols (cut the crap about expropriation), other people found them extremely offensive and thought it absolutely unacceptable that a tenant of the Sumac should display them. Going to admin meetings means taking on a level of responsibility and being placed in a position of having to make difficult decisions. Its not a position relished by anyone.

5. The Sumac is a political space, supposedly. And yet this barrage of criticism makes me even more nervous about challenging the culture of outright hostility towards political debate which has grown up in the last few years, for fear that someone might think I was looking down my nose if I disagreed with them.

Plus, for the record, whilst I consider myself an anarchist, I don't think I'm free to do whatever I want, offend or hurt whoever I want. Being an anarchist means accepting responsibility for your actions and choosing to make sacrifices for the good of the community. I don't think I should be free to, for example, propagate race-hate or abuse others. I would expect a healthy and sane community to actively prevent me from doing these things.

Published: March 19, 2013 07:22 by @

Taking down swastikas isn't censorship - it's called no platform for fascism. Do you really think it would be wise to allow the Sumac to be decorated with Nazism's favourite symbol?

Published: March 19, 2013 07:41 by Mike

I was once a regular visitor at Sumac and in the past enjoyed the events there however I must agree with the original poster that a self serving clique is now dictating what happens there and I have stopped going now.

The art display did include Nazi symbols but only as part of the broader theme and I am concerned how Zionist pressure can be used to control art in this way.

Published: March 19, 2013 09:01 by Natasha

The issue of people feeling excluded from the Sumac are being and have been discussed in depth, both online, and in meetings dedicated to the issue that were open to everyone and advertised on Sumac News (which has around 5000 people on it). It's not finished. It's still being worked out.

With this in mind, everyone is invited to the Open Space, a day of discussions that will hopefully explore thee dynamics further, in an interesting way!
See https://nottingham.tachanka.org/events/5455 for more info

Several posts have mentioned a feeling of isolation and exclusion OVER MANY YEARS. The fact that this is not something new, for me clearly points to the fact that these issues are about structural issues, NOT individuals (i.e. that there is no space to discuss ideas at the Sumac, the admin meeting just dealing with day to day stuff and policy). To lay the blame on an individual is thoughtless and hurtful. We all play a role in creating the culture of the place; all of us

The fact that people are seeking ways to deal with these issues reflects a reality that the Sumac is not a war zone that pitches megalomaniacs against some others, but that its (trying hard to be) a free place that accepts difference

Congratulations to those who have put so much work into the place for such a long time, and who are also putting so much work and energy into dealing with these dynamics

Published: March 19, 2013 09:26 by what?

Is it looking down my nose to suggest that this comment is idiotic and verges on racism? Opposing fascism should not be the sole preserve of Jewish nationalists. Obviously. Artwork which imposes a swastika on a star of David is racist and extremely offensive. You don't have to be Jewish or a supporter of the Israeli state to see that.

Published: March 19, 2013 14:47 by Concerned Comrade

Ok, firstly, I wanna say to ‘ftp’, Israel and Judaism is not at all what is being discussed here, so if you don’t mind, please can we stay relatively on point?

However, I do not think it is correct to say that the piece of art was in need of being censored, it was a piece of art in someone’s private space, their own intimate place where they rest and sleep and have their own private shit going on. It is not for someone to come into that place and tell them what is what, I don’t give a shit if it is a piece of art that gets you riled or a poster of a cop on fire that gives you a boner.

Whatever.

It is someone’s private space. THAT IS THE ISSUE HERE. Not racism. Ok?

It’s The Clique inside Sumac, as you didn’t want me to use the word Guru-Leader, so Leader will do, and it’s Leader, that is sticking their nose in and creating something out of nothing. And the housing co-op is a separate entity from Sumac, or are you saying that Sumac is now a landlord and needs to therefore act like other landlords and dictate what is to be displayed in someone’s private space?
Ffs. Get real. It is no more fighting fascism by censoring someone’s art in their own private space than it would be to beat up an eight year old boy for saying a racist word in his own home.
.
Get real here.

Are you trying to suggest, seriously, that the person who displayed their art, THEIR OWN ART, in their own space, is somehow a fascist that needs to be fought?

Are you saying that ‘no platform for fascism’ means censoring our ‘own side’ when someone within the wider community has a piece of art, in their own space? GET REAL.

It is well known that the Punk/Grunge attitude has long appropriated controversial symbols and words for their own culture and it has been seen as art.

The reaction, which is what it was, was taken too far, and yes, granted, there is a lot being done to fight fash, on the streets, through various media and online, etc. but saying to someone ‘take that down off your wall’ when it is in their own space, is a step too far.

That makes me think of prison guards going into an inmate’s cell and stripping posters from his wall…

And this brings it back to the original point of saying that the attitude of the clique at Sumac has gone too far and has, in itself, become a barrier to evolving as a movement, something that much ‘esteemed’ anarchists around the world try to warn against.
We are supposed to be against vanguards, against those that want to say ‘this path is the only path to go down’.

Just step back for a moment and see and perhaps say to yourself, ‘oh, wait, it was a piece of art on someone’s own private space, maybe we went too far?’

So stop taking yourselves so seriously as it is making you appear uptight, vanguard-ish and snotty, hence why others have come on here and agreed that the ‘down the nose attitude’ is real and has caused people to leave the Sumac.

I know this has to be balanced with the fact that people need to volunteer for the jobs and that if nobody does then the Sumac wouldn’t operate, but that also doesn’t mean that just because the same clique volunteer most of the time that they get to interfere and force their politics on to someone living in a housing co-op that has displayed a ‘controversial’ symbol in their own space. For example, who was it that originally complained? I would bet my bottom pound that it was one of the clique, perhaps one of the bar workers (who I said were anti-authoritarian, not authoritarian, btw), not simply a random passer by or a casual Sumac member.

So again, we see the clique telling others what is acceptable in their own private space.

Perhaps if all the members of Sumac were asked ‘is this ok as art in someone’s room?’ maybe they would all say, ‘no, it isnt’ and then you would have a consensus of sorts to respond. But it is still someone’s private space that is the key to this, not the symbol or its use by fash, and therefore the consensus would not mean shit. It is the right of someone to display whatever the fuck they want in their own space.

End of, in my opinion.

Published: March 19, 2013 16:07 by .

.

Published: March 19, 2013 16:42 by This is a news site

I'm getting the feeling that it might be better for 'Concerned Comrade' to talk this out with the people involved. Maybe bring some friends along for backup, get independent mediation or something. It doesn't strike me that this is news story - it's more of an interpersonal issue that the internet probably isn't helping.

Published: March 20, 2013 14:12 by Concerned Comrade

In my opinion, it is for those involved in Sumac to identify within themselves how they behave and how they treat people and how they resolve issues. not for me to get involve further, except to raise the issue in the first place as i treat people in a way that i believe is ok, i dont censor anybody and i dont look down my nose at anybody, especially those with different political outlook to mine. I did it on here to see if anyone would answer the question 'has sumac been non-intentionally hijacked' the answer to which appears to be no it hasn't but there are some other issues.

The above comments seem to endorse that there is infact a clique at sumac and that clique has contributed to the alienation of once committed people and scared off newcomers as well.

People don't have to read this and respond if they feel it isn't news and the moderators can take it down if they like, if they feel it isnt along the lines of whats expected. but then, wouldnt that in itself be another form of censorship?
i wrote the original article with as much of a journalistic slant as possible, without trnya name names or dates and times, as i could have done. i tried to raise an issue among the wider community, people who wouldnt be at the meetings because of their avoidance of the clique, hence why i came on here to raise the issue, to avoid having to go to the clique to tell them how people felt.

hope that clears up why i came on here.

Published: March 21, 2013 12:42 by Neil

The decline of the Sumac Centre is part of a wider problem in activist circles. Indymedia itself has a problem with a lack of participation and volunteers (not just Notts or UK but worldwide). Sumac suffers from the classic problem with activist run projects in that they all seem to follow a classic 5 step history

1 Initial enthusiasm, lots of people keen to be involved.
2 Majority of people drift away, core of individuals end up doing all the work.
3 Informal hierarchy develops.
4 Infighting and accusations fly around between those on the 'inside' and those on the 'outside'.
5 Project enters period of slow decline while those left behind alternate between claims of everything being ok and asking for help
6 Project closes with everybody blaming everybody else and nobody taking any responsibility.

Published: March 21, 2013 15:04 by AN Other

That's a very cynical way of looking at things and certainly isn't universally true. Many projects reinvent, revive and relaunch; many others never fade out in the first place.

Indymedia, for example, seems to be full of articles and events again since the relaunch.

Published: March 21, 2013 15:45 by Heidi

"That's a very cynical way of looking at things"

Yes but it's often an accurate one. Too many projects end up with one or two people dominating things and claiming that all is well when quite clearly they have failed. Although Notts is now somewhat revitalised look at the train wreck that is Indy UK ! The reality is the activist world often looks to big high profile campaigns and actions when it is the slow daily slog of running something like Indy that gets results. As an example look at Climate Camp which became dominated by a small group and the momentum fell away.

Published: March 21, 2013 16:14 by Tellian

I think the above comment about how a small clique often ends up in de facto control of what is in theory a horizontal organisation is a good one. Sumac has experienced this with those from Veggies in particular becoming the 'leaders' of the space.

We often see individuals for whom a particular subject is very important feeling they are somehow the 'protectors' of the project. This links in with the theft of the Indymedia UK url by a small group that felt no hesitation in ignoring a consensus decision when it suited their aims, they continue to claim they "saved" Indymedia UK.

Sumac needs to be much more open in encouraging participation, the recent survey was ignored because some people didn't like the results it produced, a classic case of "we know best". The Warrington social centre closed because a vote to allow meat to be eaten there was disliked by one person who through having access to the power generation was able to make life a misery for everybody else, the end result was closure. I'm sure he still feels he did the right thing.

Consensus must be used and respected.

Published: March 24, 2013 11:30 by Former SUMAC user

I stopped going to SUMAC about 18 months ago after having been a supporter and volunteer (bar, garden) for some years.

The informal hierarchy that developed around the increasingly confrontational vegan clique was what drove me away. I felt uncomfortable being told that being "just" a vegetarian was not good enough and that my help in the bar was no longer needed.

SUMAC was once a really great space but I'm sorry to say it is now dominated by three people who for some reason seem to think they are in charge.

Published: March 27, 2013 13:00 by Realist

They "think they are in charge" because in reality they are. Sumac has seen person after person leave the project for various reasons resulting in this small group becoming a de-facto 'leadership'.

Published: March 28, 2013 02:48 by Pat

IF Sumac is run by, or even 'dominated' by 3 people, they seem to be facilitating a surprisingly wide range of activities.

In fact I believe the diversity of events reflects the diversity of involvement and the open nature of Sumac, which is actually just a 'space' - a blank canvas on to which many people draw there own pictures.

Fridays . NG7 Food Bank

Fridays . Open Mic @ The Sumac Centre

Saturday 30th March . Open Space Discussion

Saturdays . People's Kitchen community meal

Saturday 30th March . Take Back Control Fundraiser

Sundays . Sunday Sumac Club / Cafe

Sundays . Neo-liberalism and Resistance – A movie series

Mondays . Sumac Community Food Garden

Mondays . ESOL classes for women

Monday 1st April . Sumac Open Meeting

Tuesdays . Sumac Book Stall & Library organising group

Wednesdays . Study Space at the Sumac Centre

Wednesdays . Sumac Social Club / Ents Collective

Thursday 4th Apr . Veggies Crew Meeting

Thursday 4th Apr . Nottingham Animal Rights

Wednesday 10th Apr . Community Circle

Friday 12th Apr . Greek Anarchist Prisoner & Squat Benefit

Saturday 13th Apr . Fundraiser for TIA Greyhound & Lurcher Rescue

Saturday 13th Apr . Sigh Night (Monthly)

27th/28th Apr . Stop G8 National Network Gathering

Saturday 27th Apr . Sumac Games Night

Details of all these events can be found at http://www.veggies.org.uk/arc.php?output=sumac

If anyone wants to make use of the space they can email their proposal to sumac@riseup.net, come to a first-monday-monthly open meeting or contact the socialclub/ents group. More info on room 'hire' is at http://www.veggies.org.uk/page.php?ref=1650

btw.
With reference to 'The Problem'
> "[stage 6] Project closes with everybody blaming everybody else and nobody taking any responsibility."

After 12 years, and building on a previous 18 years at the Rainbow Centre, there seems to be no sign of the project closing.

Maybe that is because an ever changing and evolving group of people (including many who have done amazing things in the past and have now moved on) don't just blame others for inactivity, but actually do take responsibility, despite the brickbats that this sometimes attracts.

Published: March 28, 2013 08:53 by Not Pat

Pat,

A 'copy and paste' from the Sumac diary is not a fair statement as to the current state of the space as I expect you know well. I am sure you are well aware most of what you list here has no relation to the reality of who turns up (if anyone in many cases) and what takes place. Sumac is in decline because of the points you make about people leaving and others taking over. The people who have taken over are the small clique alluded to in the original post and who have followed a series of policies that have driven others away. I am one of many that no longer visit or use the space because of these policies.

Published: March 28, 2013 15:03 by Do something

Wow - some people really love to whinge. If only they put as much effort as they do into moaning about the Sumac into helping to change the Sumac or creating their own alternative. But then, it's easy to snipe in anonymous posts on the internet but not so easy to actually get off your arse and do something positive.

Published: March 28, 2013 19:31 by Concerned Comrade

Ok, I just want to make something clear from the get go.

In the original post I stated of the Sumac that it is “a very well established hub of community, grass routes organizing with links around the country to long and well fought campaigns, including climate camps and animal lib projects, vegan campaigns, etc.”

And everything I said since those words has never been about slagging the sumac off, par se, for the sake of it or for any personal gripe.

The article is about the clique, which I think is now accepted exists and therefore it is for that clique to address their own attitudes towards censorship, new faces at the centre, and their ‘down the nose’ vibes that people have mentioned.

I for one think the Sumac is a much needed place, a much needed resource and every town and city should have, and most do have, a place like the Sumac where alternative activists can go to and organize groups and meetings, etc.

The issue is that certain clique, who we basically all know.

I still class these people as my fellow-strugglers, my comrades if ya like. But I will never excuse the ‘down the nose’ attitudes, the censorship of private art in a private space and the other issues alluded to by myself and others on this thread. They should get a grip of their own sense of importance and validity at the Sumac. If people are walking away and moaning and having issues, then that means there is smoke, not just fire. Surely?

Published: March 29, 2013 11:23 by t

@Not Pat - What are the policies that have been followed by the clique? What exactly are you alluding to?

@Tellian - "Consensus must be used and respected." - The Sumac meeting is the 1st monday of every month - this is where decisions regarding the space are made by consensus. Which recent survey? Who ignored it?

Former Sumac User says that the sumac is now dominated by a confrontational vegan clique of 3 people (despite not having been to the centre in 18 months, but lets ignore that for now). @Concerned comrade, are the people you're talking about confrontationally vegan? No, they're not. You're talking about different cliques within the sumac.

Someone says "I felt alienated by the clique when I tryed to become involved", someone else says "me too!", and yet you're talking about different people. Your simplistic answer to all the sumac's problems is that the people that you've identified either walk away or engage in excoriating public self-criticism. What about the clique that Former SUMAC User identified? Should they be publicly flogged as well? When I first came to the Sumac 7 or 8 years ago, I felt alienated by a clique made up of people no longer involved. Lets hang them from the sumac tree too.

This isn't a problem unique to Nottingham, just ask anyone involved in any other radical social centre in any other city.

There's a culture at fault here, not a specific group of people. As such, all users of the sumac have questions to ask of themselves, including yourself. Since you disagree with recent decisions made at admin meetings, maybe the first question you ask yourself should be "How can I influence decisions in the future?"

The answer is simple. Come to the meeting on monday evening.

Published: March 30, 2013 21:54 by Concerned Comrade

Various cliques control the sumac...I dont think anyone here is denying that. therefore the original article is rather close to the truth. cliques are not that many steps away from being vanguards...and we all know that vanguards are shit. so how do those involved in the sumac clique/s feel about being in danger of being regarded as vanguardist?

the case against the original article is not very strong, really. perhaps time to forget about comments on here and work on your policies for new faces and censorship. perhaps then there would not be as many upset people in the wider community?

@ t No I have not found people to be ramming veganism down my throat, but then I am a vegan anyway, so that doesnt bother me, although i have been told of fake vegans within the cliques, those that indulge in none vegan foods whilst masquarading as militant vegans...but thats another article altoghether.

Published: March 30, 2013 23:56 by t

This just gets more surreal...

Despite your stellar example I think I'll stick with my tried and tested policy of not spouting hateful innuendo about my neighbours. I might even keep trying to do my bit to make the sumac a more welcoming space, rather than the battlefield for hostile cliques you are willing it to be.

The Open Space forum today was really positive. Lots of faces, some new, some not so new, and we discussed many aspects of the culture around the sumac (amongst other things). No-one denounced anyone else for not being a real vegan, or for being a guru, or for being a cult-follower, or for being part of a vanguard. People I'd never seen in the space before felt empowered to speak and were listened to with the same deference as others speaking about the history of the rainbow centre and the genesis of the sumac.

So, yes, lets conclude this farce. Maybe one day you'll climb down off that high horse.

Published: April 02, 2013 09:45 by Marc

The Sumac as a space is declining in attendance and contribution because people do not want to be lectured to on what is "acceptable" there. It's is the reason the new Notts social centre has excludes certain individuals. Pretending all is ok when it's not is just counter productive and stupid.

Like another a poster above I was surprised when the online survey results were ignored but perhaps unlike others I have seen them.

The rejection of Vegansim, the concerns about engagement with the community, the apathy toward Anarchism were all too much to swallow for some so it was quietly put in a drawer and that is part of the problem

Published: April 02, 2013 10:52 by under-informed

"Like another a poster above I was surprised when the online survey results were ignored but perhaps unlike others I have seen them."

Is this a fact? I didn't know, but would be interested in seeing the results. Can't they be put here so we can have a look ourselves?

Published: April 02, 2013 12:36 by gm

Maybe its the surveymonkey that's being referred.

http://nottingham.tachanka.org/articles/2776

Published: April 02, 2013 13:47 by t

I hadn't seen this survey until today. Where are the results?

The issue of veganism and its relation to the centre is one I find quite interesting. Whilst I'm not a vegan myself (and, on occasion, not even a strict vegetarian) I do respect the strength of feeling that others have about the issue. I really like that the centre only serves vegan food - I feel that this is the most inclusive policy, because anyone can eat at peoples kitchen and brunch.

There are a lot of vegans who use the sumac, and even if they're in the minority I think its important to respect that. Speaking for myself, I never felt that it was a particularly big sacrifice to go without meat or dairy for the occasional communal meal. If anyone disagrees with this sentiment I'd be interested to hear why.

As far as anarchism goes, it seems to me that anarchist principles are built into the foundations of the place - it attempts to organise non-hierarchically around the principle of mutual aid. These principles mean that authoritarian sociopaths are excluded - all well and good in my opinion. They don't exclude anyone who hasn't decided to label themselves "anarchist", or even people with very different politics, despite the fact that they are anarchist principles.

Published: April 02, 2013 14:53 by Concerned Comrade

Is this true about the survey results? That they have been ignored? I think that is interesting and perhaps some transparency about the survey would help those people on here that are showing clear feelings of being let down at the moment and in the past.

As well, all this, all of the above comments and the original article, as far as I am concerned, have opened up something of a can of worms, and the clique running the Sumac really need to get a grip before any more lasting damage is done to a centre that has spent years building up a great reputation, (a reputation that gathered the clique there in the first place after many of them left full time university education).

Yes it is true that people come adn go and therefore efforts at the Sumac and energies at the Sumac rise and fall in relation to that coming and going.

But really, in all seriousness, just how many people have walked away or been pushed away as a result of the above comments and issues raised in the original article? That is a survey I would like to see, for sure.

Having said all that, ultimately I love the Sumac, I love the space being used for the reasons it is used and I don't want anyone to think I'm having a go for the sake of having a go. It is my love for the place and my anger at the clique that drove me to write the original article. This is not about slagging off the Sumac, par se, it is about the clique. If anyone is still at odds as to who that elite/vanguard is, then they clearly don't spend any time at the Sumac.

Published: April 02, 2013 16:42 by SUMAC user

The survey did indeed indicate that Veganism is not important to the irregular users of the SUMAC however it is VERY important to the clique that have taken control through the informal hierarchy alluded to above. This is perhaps the root of the current problems at the SUMAC, the "we know best for the space" attitude of a minority that are in effect 'running things'. The Veggies crew have always been important to SUMAC but they do need to understand they are not the only viewpoint that deserves a hearing.

SUMAC is for everyone and if the falling interest in Vegan and animal rights issues is a part of that then some people are simply going to have to accept that.

Published: April 03, 2013 02:05 by The Guru

I'm leaving Notts a week today. I don't have massive grudges about what has been said here, it is what it is and whatever. I'll leave, the sumac and its complications will carry on.

If concerned comrade or any others who agree with him would like to expresss their feelings to me in person I'd be okay with that. I don't think I'm a guru or anything of the sort but I've been active at the sumac for a few years now and am clearly who cc is talking about. I think i've done some good and made some f uck ups. I wanna learn, which doesn't mean i'll agree with peoples critique but I am up for listening. I might come back in a while and be less of a dick.

although: i'd still encourage the sumac to ban punk gigs when the result is them being trashed and the neighbours being pissed off. And i'd still encourage the banning of someone who has been abusive to another sumac volunteer, and I'd still ask people to take swastikas down (by the way the sumac flat ain't housing co-op, the sumac is the landlord of the flat above it, that's one of the reasons we afford the building) And I'm sorry I'll still have "compelling backstory" which plays a part in the way that I am.

Published: April 03, 2013 08:10 by t

I think concerned comrade should point out that they're not talking about veggies when they say "the clique". Of course, this would mean denying that the comments which you claim back up your post actually do anything of the sort.

I'm really genuinely interested in what people think should actually be done to address the issues brought up here. There's been grumbling and moaning but so far no suggestions as to how to move forwards, other than cc's proposal that people who are pissed off boycott the centre. Not a proposal which is likely to change the situation for the better.

Published: April 03, 2013 13:18 by Concerned Comrade

Well Guru, if it is indeed you, (although it possibly isn't) I accept that certain issues at the Sumac are likely to continue, because, as I have already mentioned above, these things seem to rise and fall, in waves of positive energy and then apathy toward the running of Sumac (or any project, anywhere, for that matter).

It's the censorship of art in a private space that compelled me to state my case against you and your clique/gang/affinity group, whatever you wanna call it. Without that, I would have kept my nose out (unlike what you have been accused of doing), as I understand you are trying to be the best anarchist you can be, the best anti-authoritarian you can be, the best read you can be, etc. That is only natural when someone such as yourself is on that quest. I have always admired your knowledge of these matters, particularly anarchist tendencies. However, its the attitude towards those of different opinions and the censorship and anti-punk band stance (seriously, anarchists being anti-punk...."banning punk bands??"..come on....) that has pissed me off.

How I have often thought about confronting you, mate, on these issues and more...

Believe me I have walked behind you or passed you in the street, or stood at the veg shop as you have passed by, and wondered what kind of a conversation we could possibly have that would leave either of us in a better understanding of the other. Would you ever take my side of any story as likely to be true? That is doubtful and is the sole reason I have not bothered in the last couple of years to raise my head and attempt to discuss it with you or anyone else in the clique. As it is, my response to historical incidents at the Sumac will be published at some point in the future, I'm sure...the time will be right when it happens. I was thinking about writing a play, perhaps, or book about the various relationships/fallouts/arguments and abuses. You will have a mention it it. All names will be changed of course and true identities will not be revealed, except for my own. Above all, it will be accurate.

Take Care Guru and better luck next time.

and @ t, no absolutely not, Veggies is not to be included in what I have said, relatively speaking, as without Veggies, Sumac would not be half the place it is.

Published: April 03, 2013 17:25 by t

"Believe me I have walked behind you or passed you in the street, or stood at the veg shop as you have passed by, and wondered what kind of a conversation we could possibly have"

This is fucking creepy. You've crossed a line from arrogant and hypocritical criticism to anonymous online stalking and bullying. Your behaviour is seriously out of order. Please reread your comments before responding to see why I say this. However hard you think the person you're abusing is (and I do not use the word abusing lightly) how can this be justified?

"Would you ever take my side of any story as likely to be true? That is doubtful and is the sole reason I have not bothered in the last couple of years to raise my head and attempt to discuss it with you or anyone else in the clique."

Why do you assume no-one would listen and try to empathise with you? Possibly because you have such a hard time empathising with anyone in "the clique". Please do not project your insecurities onto others. There are plenty of people ready and willing to discuss and debate the issues you've raised, myself included. Presumably you will recognise me by my initial.

The decision about the punk gigs, like the swastikas, was made by consensus at a regular open sumac meeting. It was made for very good reasons. My proposal for a conclusion to this was that you attend meetings. You haven't.

What are your proposals? What would you like to see changed? How would you like to see it changed? Bear in mind that, partly because of your internet bullying campaign, there is now one less person making sure that the bills are paid on time. Any proposals will need time and energy put into them to be enacted, which means you as well as others.

Please lets stop this and have a real life conversation about it.

Published: April 03, 2013 23:14 by Dean

This whole discussion is absolute nonsense. In my opinion the people that are being labelled as apart of a ruling clique are actually just motivated individuals that make sure the important jobs get done. Without their work the sumac wouldn't function. Anyone is welcome to help them carry out these jobs and I'm 100% certain that they would love the help. Also as far as I'm aware none of them are vegan.

Published: April 03, 2013 23:50 by under-informed

As I said before ......

"Like another a poster above I was surprised when the online survey results were ignored but perhaps unlike others I have seen them."

Is this a fact? I didn't know, but would be interested in seeing the results. Can't they be put here so we can have a look ourselves?

Would it not help the argument to see these results ourselves here? Thus we could all see if the users opinion was in fact being ignores as suggested. After I asked, we just got pointed to the survey .... not the results. I want to know now, to help judge the situation. Thanks.

Published: April 04, 2013 09:24 by under informed

What do you mean, the results are being considered?
I should hope they are!!. But could not the troll be sidelined simply by telling the rest of us. Publish them here. Like now. Then perhaps the rest of us might consider them as well. Just a thought.

Published: April 04, 2013 10:38 by t

https://www.dropbox.com/s/1aiur84abzkdljo/SurveyMonkey%20-%20Survey%20Results.html

I've asked around and found the results of the survey. I hope the link above works for anyone interested.

Published: April 04, 2013 11:09 by Concerned Comrade

Ok, t, well I accept that this is not the ideal 'place' to get in to the finer complexities of all the sides to this issue, however, if you take in to account the intention of the original article, this was supposed to be about raising the concerns that the clique had gone to far with the censorship and down the nose attitude. That was the focus of the article and the subsequent comments, which seem to suggest there are a number of peeps that feel similar or have other, related issues that they felt compelled to share on this 'platform'.

Therefore, your idea that this is cyber bullying of some kind is actually laughable and dropping arm chair psychology on me also makes me chuckle. I did not realise that you guys cant hack the airing of the dirty laundry in 'public'.

I did not intend for my last comment to appear, as you say, 'creepy', merely suggesting that myself and the guru didn't get on at the best of times and so seeing them in the street often evoked feelings of anger and annoyance because of their previous stance and attitude in relation to past events. I wrote it in a manner as to convey feelings of holding back from confronting the Guru, as it may not have always been a positive outcome for either of us. The way you interpret it is up to you.

So even though I am over what the clique initiated against me, 1) please dont act like you guys have always done things in the most 'right on' manner, because that's laughable and 2) if people are pissed off with you and the Guru and the way it has gone, then, like my comments have stated, it is for you guys to look inward and change your vibes and attitude, like I have done in the last couple of years, turning my whole life around. It takes courage and commitment to change our negative habits and a desire for proper change.

Having said that, I understand you and the Guru are people that will likely take on that challenge to look inward and I wish you the best of luck with it. And if you truly know who I am and want me to come to a meeting, i will gladly take up that offer if it is brought to me in person or by email.

about the survey, perhaps publishing some kind of summary of the results would help to counter the evidently growing discontent about the whole thing?

and finally, I absolutely agree with t that this is not about attacking the Sumac or helping the cops and fash to divide us and wedge between different affinities, so I would have liked to keep this about the clique and its own self analysis and criticism.

i hope that clears up any confusion as to my motives...

Published: April 04, 2013 12:02 by t

And you are not some sort of special case. The sumac meetings are open so you can choose to attend them if you want, as can anyone else.

I asked for your proposals to make the sumac a more welcoming space and to dissolve the culture of cliquishness. You haven't presented any yet, you've just told us you're not willing to engage with or personally challenge any of the people you believe to be in the wrong. Please, tell us all, how do you think we should collectively make the sumac a more welcoming space?

Published: April 04, 2013 13:24 by Concerned Comrade

hey t, forget it mate. i made my point in the earlier article and comments. everything i have to say is in them. literally all my views on this entire thing are explained in the article and the comments. this is for the cliques involved in the Sumac to resolve. i am not in those cliques, so it is not a matter for me to come along and say, 'you should do this', except to say you should not censor art in a persons private space, no matter what pedestal you have placed your anti-fash activities upon.

perhaps publish the survey results as an article on NIM newswire, instead of a download? just an idea.....

Published: April 04, 2013 19:16 by gm

The survey file linked to is not a virus. Thanks for the openness shown by the poster.

PLEASE DOWNLOAD

https://www.dropbox.com/s/1aiur84abzkdljo/SurveyMonkey%20-%20Survey%20Results.html

mODS - PLEASE KEEP THE LINK

-indyleaks

Published: April 04, 2013 20:34 by Sceptic

In my opinion, this whole thread is a troll thread designed to piss off the people who put the hard work in to make the Sumac a better place, and it seems to be working.

For someone who claims not to want any involvement, "Concerned Comrade" is coming back to comment rather a lot and saying a lot of different and often contradictory things, seemingly intent on a wind up.

Just ignore him/her and s/he will go away.

Published: April 05, 2013 14:07 by Former SUMAC user

"In my opinion, this whole thread is a troll thread "
-----------------------
The ever reliable claim when posters don't like what is being said by others.

Sumac needs fixing, the problems there need open discussion, the decline in people being involved needed to be addressed.

End of

Published: April 10, 2013 20:15 by Not a troll

I have personally been subjected to subtle comments here and there about this and that and it personally made me feel like not going to the sumac after a while, these comments were made by the person in question.

I would like to point out that you don't need to shout someone down in a meeting, or publicly belittle them, bullying can be as subtle as a whisper in the ear or a comment in passing.

For that person to proclaim that they were a dedicated person and one of few that battled to keep things running is amazing, to be one of the reasons there is a lack of support then bemoan the lack of support, is like burning all your clothes and then complaining that you are cold.

The sumac has always had issues and it always will have issues, it doesn't mean that the place is a joke or not worth fighting for, it is true that people need to be more supportive (including myself) and more active within the space; however the aforementioned issues do not support people’s enthusiasm to persist, the proclamations from some that this is not happening is very worrying indeed, “can’t see the woods for the trees” comes to mind.

People pushing their own agendas within the sumac is one of the reasons it struggles to move on, a prime example of someone pushing their own agenda was demonstrated recently. I Witnessed volunteer at the sumac being shouted down because they made a dessert that had alcohol in it, by someone who wants alcohol to be banned from the sumac, is this acceptable, no. Is alcohol a good thing, no! Is pushing your own agenda and having a pop at anyone you see fit to gain popular support for your cause acceptable, no.

For all of you who think this is designed to cause discord at the sumac, may I suggest you take a break, have a think, gather your thoughts and try to understand why people actually care enough to raise these points, instead of putting your defensive hat on.

The people who have dismissed the comments from “concerned comrade” or who have chosen to pick out an inaccurate part of their comments and used a single inaccuracy to try and devalue their entire point, cannot see the problem because they are indeed part of the problem itself.

Also regarding the "art" was it immature, possibly, was it a statement of their political belief, no.

The matter was not handled very well at all, (you know who you are) running around shouting about how a fascist is living in the sumac and doing so in public spaces beggars belief (this was also witnessed), you tell people to get down off their horse, try taking your own advice, is the reason you are being so defensive because you handled the issue with the level of maturity often seen in a playground.

Long live the sumac, may the death of the clique come quicker than the death of Thatcher.

Lots of love

Not a troll

Published: April 11, 2013 07:49 by Not involved

Whether these comments are troll comments or not, nothing has been changed by this discussion other than some people venting. If the people commenting here aren't willing to actually have the conversations (not anonymous internet slanging matches, or grumbling with their mates in private) that might change minds and make things better and if they aren't willing to go to meetings or take part in the running of the sumac then these problems will definitely continue.

I admire "the Guru" who has come on here (despite being slagged off mercilessly) without bearing grudges and to say s/he is willing to listen to anyone that wants to take it up with her/him in person as well as explaining why s/he has acted in the way s/he has. I notice that no one seems to have taken her/him up on the offer.

Venting on the internet is easy but it doesn't change anything. I'm not disregarding the issues that have been raised here - many are clearly true (although I think many of those involved in the sumac were aware of them already). But it seems to me that this discussion is just a bit of therapy for people who don't like the way the sumac's going but have no intention of doing anything about it. I hope I'm wrong so please prove me wrong by putting your pride aside and joining the struggle.