Frack Free Nottingham

Published: November 21, 2013 07:53 by Wage Slave

I really this is the new campaign for some but to be blunt in the current economic crises I would prefer to have the cheap gas that fracking provides thanks.

Published: November 22, 2013 09:08 by H

Each well needs approximately a thousand truck movements so when we're looking at 900 wells around Nottinghamshire that's 900,000 truck movements. That means the small roads will need upgrading, who pays for that?

Who pays for processing the contaminated water? It will go onto your water bill.

Anyway to bring down the cost of gas, domestic frack gas production would have to out balance imports of gas from europe. That isn't likely to happen because each well will only last for 1 to 2 years. Unless they build every possible well in the UK at the same time, the volume produced will not be enough to have an appreciable effect on gas prices.
In that case, bills would only come down for a year and then come back up again.

Don't listen to energy company lies. Fracking is expensive and will destroy the agricultural economy in Nottinghamshire.

Published: November 23, 2013 10:15 by Grown up

Lie after lie after lie.

If this is the extent of your argument against cracking it's no wonder you are failing to convince anyone.

Published: November 23, 2013 15:21 by h

No, that's a non-economists understanding of the economic arguments against fracking. If you've got better info and can answer any of those points please do.

There's a wealth of other political and environmental arguments against fracking as well. I didn't go into them because I was replying to the assertion that fracking will bring down energy bills. Unfortunately things are rarely that simple in a grown-up world.

Businesses always try to externalise their costs, and we are the ones who'll be picking up the tab. We'll pay for the contamination of aquifers directly out of our water bills. We'll pay for road repairs and upgrades directly out of our council tax and road tax. We'll pay for cleanup operations after the wells have been sucked dry (hehe).

Published: November 25, 2013 08:48 by Grown Up

If you are really interested in the facts behind the benefits of fracking then do your own research, I'm not your secretary. Mind you I am willing to give you a quick couple of examples.

My sister has lived in the US for 15 years and in her State most of their gas now comes from fracking sources, she has seen a nearly 40% drop in the cost of their domestic gas supply. In the Czech Republic the cost to manufacturing industry of their gas fell by 30% in the first year after they began fracking five years ago.

Don't confuse ideology with costs.

Published: November 25, 2013 14:19 by h

I think you should do a bit more research of your own.

There hasn't been any exploitation of shale gas in Czech. Checkout these links:
http://www.naturalgaseurope.com/shale-gas-in-the-czech-republic
http://www.alphabetics.info/international/2013/02/26/fracking-in-europe-prohibited/

It appears the Czech Republic introduced a moratorium on exploratory wells in the past year. There hasn't been any serious exploration beyond geological surveys yet, let alone large-scale production. Where did you get your info that they'd been producing for 5 years?

I can't speak for energy bills in America, except to say that they probably have a very different energy mix to the UK and that there natural gas probably comes from different places. Our gas prices are currently set by imports from Russia (60% of our gas is imported currently). Its a seller's market for fossil fuels and Brits will pay whatever it costs. In order to actually bring gas prices down we'll need to produce enormous quantities of gas to rebalance this. When the entire estimated recoverable UK resource of unconventional gas is only about 10x our annual consumption (according to the latest British Geological Survey's most optimistic figures, least optimistic is more like 1.5x) this looks extremely unlikely to happen.

And, of course, if we did start producing on that sort of scale we'd just end up in the same boat in ten years time, except with nothing in the bank and a poisoned industrialised countryside to boot. I'm guessing you're not a farmer.

Published: November 25, 2013 15:30 by Grown Up

If you are simply going to publish incorrect information and deliberate lies then I really don't have time for you.

The fracking debate is a classic example of one that has simply left the activist community behind. Fracking leads to lower gas prices, this has been proven time and again all over the world, nearly every developed government in the world is investing in it and those groups who are trying to organise opposition to it are already behind the curve and irrelevant to the discussion.

You want a debate, discussion, meetings, protests, a chance to feel 'involved' when in fact the time for all that is already over and yet you don't even understand why.

Published: November 25, 2013 15:36 by Czech person in Nottingham

There is fracking in Czech Republic and Slovakia. The initial benefits only went to industry because they could make long term commitments to buying natural gas but now people in homes get cheaper gas as well. The savings have been about 20% for houses with families.

Published: November 25, 2013 16:21 by h

So unfortunately I can't afford to spend $1295 for this, but the abstract is pretty clear:

Czech Republic Oil and Gas Report Q4 2013
https://www.asdreports.com/shopexd.asp?id=76219&desc=Czech+Republic+Oil+and+Gas+Report+Q4+2013

Fracking companies such as Cuadrilla have been applying for *exploration* licenses in Czech, but at the moment it appears there is a government ban on this work being carried out. How can there be full-scale production? It looks like you're misinformed. If you've got any evidence to the contrary please post it rather than trolling.

Published: November 25, 2013 16:49 by h

From a very pro-fracking website (incidental run by a pr consultant, Nick Grealy, who has worked for many energy companies, including Cuadrilla):

http://www.nohotair.co.uk/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2459:czech&catid=184:uncategorised&Itemid=222

There is also a page for Slovakia with similar info, showing that Slovakia imports 99% of its gas.

Yes, this is old data - but its on a very up-to-date website which is very eager to promote fracking.

Published: November 25, 2013 18:13 by h

Search engines are great, aren't they? You're welcome for the secretarial work.

First off - the staunchly environmentalist Daily Telegraph:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/energy/fracking/10296274/Fracking-wont-lower-energy-bills-says-Davey.html
The tory Energy Secretary refutes the claim that fracking will bring down energy bills. Namedropped as agreeing with this assessment - David Kennedy, head of the Committee On Climate Change, and Lord Stern, of the stern report etc. These are heavyweight conservative figures, not tree-hugging activists with a green, lefty agenda.

Second - Greenpeace
http://www.greenpeace.org.uk/newsdesk/energy/fact-check/will-fracking-lower-bills
OK, so you can level the "lefty green activist" charge against these guys. By all means, be sceptical whilst you're reading their arguments. But don't just shout "lies, lies!!"

I'll copy and paste a snippet from this article, which is the argument I've been clumsily trying to make in a nutshell:

"Gas is hard to export, you need either pipelines or terminals to liquefy it and put it onto tankers.

The US has almost no export facilities and a poorly integrated gas grid. That meant that when they found gas, it was sold locally and as supply overwhelmed demand, the price plummeted (until they started building export facilities).

Unlike the US the UK is part of a regional gas market – with our European neighbours. We have pipelines to Norway, Belgium and Holland and already export some of the gas we produce in the North Sea – only to re-import gas from elsewhere.

Cuadrilla, therefore, are going to sell their gas to the highest bidder – from anywhere in Europe. The UK may benefit from continuing to produce gas because UK bidders will not have to pay the same transport costs of those in the EU – but that is fairly marginal and not guaranteed."

Even better, and linked from the greenpeace article above:
http://www.proactiveinvestors.co.uk/companies/stocktube/2133/shale-gas-wont-lead-to-a-collapse-in-uk-gas-prices-says-pyry--2133.html
This report was commissioned by Cuadrilla themselves. A maximum drop in bills of 1.7% doesn't sound particularly appealing to me.

Published: November 26, 2013 16:56 by Wondering

Looks like we have a professional gas industry shrill here trying to prepare the ground for the excuses when they try to avoid giving the UK public the same low cost gas that others are getting. Looks like the classic petrol industry playbook being used that explains away why falling crude prices never equate to lower costs at the pumps.

Try all you like chummy, IMC readers are smarter than that.

Published: November 26, 2013 18:44 by h

hahahahaha.......

.....hahahahahahahahaha

get back under your bridge, troll

Published: November 27, 2013 08:09 by Active

Expect to see a lot of this in the future.

The big energy companies are VERY worried about the effect on their profits that fracking is going to produce and like the fuel companies and tobacco companies before them they will be using a lot of PR to try and influence public opinion.

Preparing the public mind for no price reductions is a key part of their strategy and the professional shrill that has been active in this thread is a good example of just how far they will go.

The low cost energy that is coming is our right.

Published: November 27, 2013 13:27 by another delusional misanthrope

Its such a shame that the beautiful dream that was Indymedia has turned into a fetid backwater for paranoid-delusional misanthropes to spew their bile and cultivate their dystopian fantasies. I speak for myself as well as the idiot who's been trolling this thread. We should just shut up and recognize the damage we've done/are continuing to do to what was once an amazing resource.

Debate should mean debate, not crazy ad hominem attacks. If you can't challenge the content of what someone is saying you should keep your mouth shut, rather than making stupid and contradictory statements. If someone provides evidence that you are lying (see above re fracking in Czech and Slovakia) you should either acknowledge it or leave with your tail between your legs. If someone provides a load of evidence which totally undermines your argument you should try to produce evidence to the contrary, rather than making insane anonymous attacks.

If you are detached enough from reality to believe your last two comments you should probably seek some help. On the other hand, if you are posting them out of spite because you've been exposed as a liar and an idiot (and you have), then the moderator should delete them.

Published: November 27, 2013 14:04 by Still a believer

What another post claiming the end of Indymedia ? I've been reading those for years.

The reality of Indymedia today is the same it has always been we appeal to a tiny minority of the population and have never been able to extend our reach because our message is lost in the sort of political infighting we see above. I doubt that the truth behind fracking is known by any of the contributors to this thread.

Published: November 27, 2013 15:26 by TY

"I doubt that the truth behind fracking is known by any of the contributors to this thread"

---------------------------------------------------
Fully agree. Any individual who is claiming this is a 'black and white issue' can safely be ignored.

What is true is that US/Canadian gas prices for consumers have fallen markedly since the mass implementation of fracking as to if that will be repeated in Europe is still very much to be seen however what is certain is that the now massive increase in European reserves as a result of fracking are already impacting on prices out of Qatar and Abu Dhabi. The Canadian research on the geo effects of fracking indicate it will not be as bad as some claim but probably still not good with some limited water table contamination and instability.

However the key point here is that the potential benefits are going to ensure no government is going to say no to fracking and as an earlier poster in this thread said regretfully the activist community is so far behind the argument they are simply not an influence.

Published: November 28, 2013 12:14 by Spent a summer working for a PR firm

Don't underestimate the amount of time and resources that the energy companies are prepared to put into this. While the readership of Indymedia maybe low it is very influential in those groups who are likely to want to call the energy companies to account. It is well known for example that GazProm in Russia was behind the financing of the principle Bulgarian fracking protest movement. This movement which after the Bulgarian government stopped fracking (and carried on buying from Russia)simply ceased to exist.

In Denmark the pressure group Concito which has links to Greenpeace saw its key staff come under massive attack in the press for suggesting that fracking should lead to lower gas prices for consumers. It was later found that the campaign had been coordinated by Maersk Oil owners of the main Danish natural gas field in the North Sea.

The shrill who popped up here and tried to cause problems is likely to be a foretaste of what is to come.

Published: November 29, 2013 08:42 by Will

" Hydraulic fracturing is such an easy choice to support it is one of those political issues where only the extremist fringe oppose it. Imagine an opportunity for the UK to be 100% free of imported gas for at least 200 years, what minister is going to say no to that ? Of course there will be objectors, like the Luddites before them they are always some tiny minority opposed to progress but they are an irrelevance regarding an issue of this importance. "

Published: January 29, 2015 11:23 by zeb

its a fair cry from all the godess worship, ley lines, stonehenge.
if the gas companies could make money from your blood theyd tell u it was good for you