Notts students cave in

Published: December 04, 2010 11:41 by class

Aye, good article exposing the pitfalls of negotiation and representation.
Thanks for that.

Published: December 04, 2010 13:07 by Godmother

An organised group of five or so individuals attended the occupation. To my knowledge they did not play a significant role in the organisational or practical aspects of the occupation, but gave considerable verbal input. A decision had to be reached in a very short period of time, taking into account practical realities. I sided with those whom i know to be active on campus and for whom i have developed a degree of trust and respect. I do not know who this group of individuals were, but it is my impression that they were not interested in consensus but in dominating and imposing their party line. This is only one stage in the protest. The struggle continues.

Published: December 04, 2010 18:50 by Occupier

Firstly, a few things about the issues raised about the lies fed by the security. The lie about the wedding was spread (maybe by security) but this, nor contraventions of health and safety, played a large role in the decision to leave. They were discussed and debated in the meeting, but as there was no concrete confirmation of the wedding, and the fact we knew we were not contravening health and safety regulations, meant they did not play a significant part in the decision to leave.

In terms of the idea that the occupation has sold out so that a minority can play a role in 'representational politics,' I think many would argue that this is completely fabrication. The way in which the meeting operates and is conducted has been discussed heavily, and will continue to be in the future, with an emphasis on ensuring that no one is singled out as a leader or a representative.

Finally, there were more issues than just the meeting in consideration when discussing the end of the occupation. For instance, the importance of maintaining enough occupiers to ensure the survival of the occupation played a large role. If the decision to refuse the meeting had been made and that night the occupation was forcibly removed due to a lack of people able to stay and occupy, it would appear a completely wasted opportunity for the cause.

Personally, I voted to stay in occupation. However, the group decided to move out, take the concession, apply pressure in a more public space and continue the struggle. I was disappointed then, and still am now, but the more I reflect on the ending of the occupation, the more I take the opinion that this has provided us with the opportunity to fight our fight in a more public space and in a more public way. The end of the occupation does not mean the end of the group's struggle nor a change of the way in which it has operated- democratically, without leaders or representatives. The meeting with the VC may not provide concrete changes in policy, but it provides a platform on which we can continue to build.

Published: December 04, 2010 19:22 by Sofia

I appreciate people are upset that we weren't able to keep up the occupation but this article is a complete load of shit and was clearly written by someone who does not know what they are taking about.

Having been involved in organising the whole thing from the beggining I can assure that there is no fucking conspiracy of people interested in bull shit representative politics.

The truth is, this is not just about the university, it is about defeating the government's plans to raise fees and scrap funding. Organising and living in the occupation was extremely draining for the 50 or so people who lived there ALL THE TIME (and didnt pop in for an hour or so and then write bull shit articles) and these same people also needed to organise and attend the demonstration in town today which shut down two vodaphone shops as well as preparing for thursdays day of action in London.

This article makes no reference to the fact we have said it is a TEMPORARY SUSPENSION! This article is divisive and negative when what we need is unity and to work together. This is a big, long term struggle, occupying buildings will remain an important tactic that we use, but as it is very draining on the small number of people who were doing all/most of the work, we will also use other tactics at other times.

Instead of celebrating what we achieved, instead of congratulating us on being a part of the national movement of occupations, you shit all over our achievements with this patronising bull shit. Do you have any idea how much effort went into keeping the occupation running so smoothly for so long? this was a group of people who didnt know each other, most of whom had no experience of protesting before, let alone occupying. Then you wanna come and judge us with your I'm a superior activist type bull shit attitude.

But despite your negativity, we will continue to fight this government and this university. And despite the fact we havent done it in a way that pleases you, we will keep resisting and we will win.

Published: December 04, 2010 19:28 by You're having a laugh

Well, as the OP says, leaving the building now may (or may not) have its merits. But presenting this decision (as the occupation blog does) as part of a victorious deal made with the university management is surely a mistake.

There is little reason to believe that the university will pay heed to any of the students' demands, especially as they are now negotiating from a position of decreased leverage. These talks will have the effect of kicking the issue into the long grass. Is there even a concrete date set for them? I wouldn't be surprised if they failed to emerge altogether. If they do emerge management will probably try to drag things out (a process of consultation, anyone?) so that you're looking at an ever-lengthening time scale working toward an ever-dwindling reward with an ever-decreasing number of students engaged, energised and mobilised. This is especially a shame for an issue which is very much pressing (isn't the vote next week?). It'll probably be more difficult to mobilise people once the changes look like a done deal.

The students should by all means change tactic if they feel it's necessary, but for god's sake they should make sure the pressure goes up, and doesn't just tail off whilst everyone waits on management bullshit.

Published: December 04, 2010 19:43 by You're having a laugh

I do agree though that to the outsider the original post does seem a bit overly negative ("student cave in"? Steady on!). I've not been close to this so maybe you have your reasons, but it looks to me more like a strategic decision (albeit a debatable one) than an act of cowardice or a stitch-up.

Published: December 04, 2010 21:24 by Sofia

This is what i mean about people spouting off about stuff they dont even know about. if anyone had paid even the slightest bit of attention to our website http://nsafc.wordpress.com/ and looked under Rally and Forum on Monday they would know the date has been set for Monday 3pm, we wouldnt of left for a fuckin promise of talkin to us with an unset date for fuck sake. We are having a rally outside and the meeting is on the terms we set, open meeting with capacity for over 100 people, two media, representation from the occupation and the vice chancellor who has promised to feed back to the senate and council that make the decision about the cuts etc. but we dont trust these suited liars. we dont believe them. this is just one step that we are taking so that we can say that we have tried to engage them in debate etc. this it is not the end. if we do not like how they respond we will reoccupy. So can people who dont know anything please stop chatting shit. I havent eaten or slept for 4 days, i have been working solidly for like 20 hours a day for this occupation, and then to face this bull shit from the activist community is actually really distressing.

Either provide practical soultions, advice or ideas or shut the fuck up. dont just criticise - if your so fucking clever - why dont you occupy the council building and bring down the government? if what we are doin is so terrible - do something better or tell us how it could be better. dont jus shit all over other activists that are actually DOING something (not just writing shit on the internet) to make your self feel superior.

FYI - we were engaging normal, working class, and never protested before students, from the university and Bilborough college, New College and other schools and colleges across Nottingham in a consensus decision making, non hierarchical, vegan, autonomous space. When have the anarchists who write on here ever done that? when have they ever engaged the local community in anything? You just go to one or two places in town and forest fields and are totally shut off from the whole community. and then when people do sucessfully mobilise hundreds of people at an occupation, because it doesnt carry on long enough you wanna shit all over it? well FUCK YOU

Published: December 04, 2010 23:10 by Unity?

Well to start with I think you can assume that anyone who is so disappointed about the end of the occupation probably thought it was a very worthwhile thing in the first place (I know I did) so don't think there's any need to start defending that.

I can certainly see the sense in meeting with the university to rebut any argument that you're not interested in engaging with constructively, just want to cause trouble etc., but also agree with the above statement that (though I can understand the desire no put a positive slant on the end of the occupation) the blog quote cited in the main article does read a bit like a false declaration of victory. The university hasn't actually made any concrete concessions, and the meeting on Monday will presumably see the university trot out some well-rehearsed arguments about making decisions in the best interests of the university. The UoN is entrenched in its position (and in fact actively lobbies for increased fees, as we all know) and it'll take more than this (brilliant) occupation to change that. It seems to me like withdrawal was as tactical decision and maybe it would have been better presented as such.

Anyhow, my reason for posting was that I'm quite surprised at the amount of muck being slung on this thread. Not really sure what to say about that except please can we try not to let disagreement over tactics turn into bitter personal conflict. I'm sure we're all delighted about the vibrancy that the student movement has displayed in the last few weeks and look forward to seeing it flourish. I'm hopeful maybe people can recognise that we're standing on common ground.

Published: December 04, 2010 23:16 by This machine kills biscuits

Sounds like some folk learned a lot from Billy Bullshit's recent pep talk (see http://nottingham.tachanka.org/articles/762 )!

Published: December 05, 2010 10:43 by Anarcho type

I previously wrote an article praising the occupation but suggesting that a long term vision was needed:
http://nottingham.tachanka.org/articles/764

For people on this thread saying that it's all bullshit that you aren't engaging in representational politics I have two things to say:

1. How are you going to involve all the people from Bilborough College, Nottingham Trent, non-students, etc involved in the occupation because only card carrying Nottingham students are going to be allowed to attend the meeting with the VC?

2. Majority voting. How are all the people who voted against your plan going to be included in the ongoing struggle?

"FYI - we were engaging normal, working class, and never protested before students, from the university and Bilborough college, New College and other schools and colleges across Nottingham in a consensus decision making, non hierarchical, vegan, autonomous space. When have the anarchists who write on here ever done that?"

Yeah you're right. Go on and lead the revolution like you obviously want to. What do we know?

Published: December 05, 2010 12:29 by btm

this has all got a bit heated. maybe we should all hold back on our fiery political speeches and take stock of what's going on.

a load of students, from different colleges and universities, got together to occupy a prime UoN location, in opposition to teaching cuts and increases to tuition fees. cracking!

they held the occupation for several days, organised themselves, brought staff members on side, used the space for a range of activities. grand!

after a quite draining time with probably little sleep and not enough proper food or downtime, the main organisers felt like the needed to end the occupation (for now). this was put to a vote which was won by those wanting to end the occupation. probably all a bit questionable but understandable if they need some rest before continuing the struggle.

i understand why this post has been written and i reckon it is well worth the occupiers reading and discussing. however, the biggest question is how can we, people who haven't been able to get more involved in the occupation, support the struggle? and are the occupiers willing to reach out and involve us too? for example, it's all well and good writing stuff on your personal blog, but most nottingham activists get their news from sites like this. why aren't you putting it here as well?

Published: December 05, 2010 15:53 by Sofia

1) the students you mention are in a meeting RIGHT NOW talking about how their voices can be heard. we are still all fighting together and will continue to do so, how do YOU engage the local community by the way?
2) we dont agree with majority rule, all of those who voted against ending it are still working together to build the movement and take it forward (instead of being divisive like you)

"Yeah you're right. Go on and lead the revolution like you obviously want to. What do we know?"

i dont even believe in leaders. instead of being sarcastic, why dont you answer my questions? what have you done? why dont you occupy a council building? why dont you try to support us rather than attacking us?

I tell you why, coz it is actually YOU that want to lead the revolution. look how angry you are that it didnt go how YOU want even though you were clearly not involved. coz there was one vote when we didnt have time for a proper consensus meeting, you wanna use that against us? what have you done to support us? if you put half the amount of time and energy into supporting this kind of movement that you do into shitting all over it, you might actually achieve something in your life.

Published: December 05, 2010 16:12 by Sofia

That lead the revolution comment has really pissed me off. i had to miss the demo's that shut down vodaphone etc yesterday coz i am so BURNT OUT from the last week. there is nothing i want more than for people to become empowered to act to organise and do things themselves, with out a leader, without asking me or anyone else for guidance/advice. i would of much prefered for others to do the organising,constant cleaning, liasing with the media, talking to security etc that i ended up having to do. by FAR my favorite parts of the occupation were the parts when other people organised and did things with out my involvement/knowledge. not only do i politically not agree with leaders, i hate having so much responsibility let alone constant pressure and lack of sleep etc etc

i dont want to lead anything. at all.

Published: December 05, 2010 16:17 by Sofia

it's all well and good writing stuff on your personal blog, but most nottingham activists get their news from sites like this. why aren't you putting it here as well?

The first thing the university did is cut off our internet, they then cut off our electricity. we DID keep indymedia constantly updated, i wrote news from the occupation about the pedal power we organised, and we put all of our flyers etc up on here. What more do you want? Notts SOS kept their website continually update with our news. why is it so hard for you to check other webisites?

having said that, i agree with the rest of your comment. it makes more sense for you to concentrate on how you could of supported the occupation, so that it could of carried on longer, than it does shitting all over it like the so called "anarchist" keeps doing.

Published: December 05, 2010 16:46 by Joe Morris

As an anarchist, someone who helped organise the occupation and participated in it, I was one of the most vocal opponents of leaving the occupation. I believe that people were tricked by security and that many people got spooked by those tricks. The obvious lies were clearly not obvious to everyone. I also think it was completely out-of-order that politically liberal people who had neither helped organise the occupation, nor participated in it during the nights people slept there, were given such a massive voice to decide when and why the occupation was going to end. Especially since those liberals making the argument that we can "always occupy again" would have inevitably relied on the people they were calling "divisive" and "occupation fetishists" to actually do it, since they clearly didn't want to get their hands dirty. What's also important is that I, and others, said all this IN THE MEETING, not on the internet, so that our views could be held accountable democratically. Something the anonymous writer of the opening article seems to have forgotten to do. I don't know if this person was in the meeting trying to argue these points or not, but we certainly could have done with the help in trying to persuade people. Articles after the fact are really not very useful (especially since they're political analysis is nobish and they have no idea what they're talking about).

In light of all my views and anger towards the ending of the occupation, the only question that we can ask moving forward is: what are we going to do now? In my view 2 of the meeting demands that were not met, and two of the most important quite frankly, still have to be addressed. Firstly, the fact that non-UoN students, especially FE students, cannot attend is a complete betrayal to their participation in the occupation and the movement as a whole. These cuts and fees are going to effect them directly and their voice is absolutely vital in this struggle. However, the refusal by management to let those people in the meeting has not deterred ANYONE, even those who argued to end the occupation, from agreeing that there presence should exist and/or be forced onto that meeting, whether the University likes it or not. Secondly, the fact the forum is not going to be a decision making body will only precipitate further action and embolden the already growing student movement around Nottingham (mobilised by the occupation by the way).

Yes, the occupation ended too soon. Yes, the demands were not enough. But what has come out of the occupation is a large, co-ordinated and highly motivated group of people; some of whom have experienced for the first time the use of non-hierarchical decision making, organisation and unfortunately learned first hand how authority will be divisive and use lies to get what it wants. Something that people often need to experience first hand before they understand it. All this may seem trivial for activists and "anarcho-types", but to dismiss these lessons as a defeat is to completely misunderstand the nature of struggle.

I think it's very easy for people to criticise, but in actual fact, it takes a great deal more understanding and political will to move beyond those criticisms and ensure that the next step is the correct one. Or at least the correct analysis and politics is being argued. It's clearly the time to move on from the occupation and see the campaigns momentum for what it is.

Rather than making political abstractions as an outsider, I would encourage these "anarcho-types" - whoever you are - to get involved.

Published: December 05, 2010 16:58 by Yuri

Furthermore, its not like the people who chose to stay and continue the occupation have given up on the struggle out of some sentimental, self-defeatist and injured pride mentality.

The majority (if not all actually) have accepted this and continue with the movement, with meetings, with yesterdays demo, and preparing for tomorrows meeting.

Should it not go as we wish, we will CONTINUE to fight. No doubt YOU will sit back and type some BULLSHIT article here about how you were proved right. But that's all you do, SIT AND TALK! You will have to excuse us while we MARCH ON in London to fight for SOMETHING WE BELIEVE IN!

Published: December 05, 2010 17:00 by Dave

Just to state, as some one who was there in the build up, first couple of days and in the last hours, the occupation was amazing! It is really upsetting to see the negative approach some people have decided to take when pulling the occupation.

As some who voted to stay, I totally agree with Sofia's comments. The fact is those who wanted to stay where disappointed yes, and that had a lot to do with the fact that every other time we had reached a concession based agreement. However, it has not stopped a single one of us staying involved! NSACAF has brought together so many different people from so many different places, that is the biggest victory of the occupation, we have shown that we can come together and we can organize ourselves! We never had leaders, no one person imparted a party line, we worked out the best course of action, that everyone could get behind!

Yes those last few hours were difficult but we remain strong together. Political or strategic disagreement, does not mean we stop being friends! In fact I would say thats a huge gain too, we all made a lot of friends, friends who are willing to stand together, in this fight and in future ones!

I get teary eyed when I look the pics of the occupation, and think about how amazing it was being there. It was amazing few days and I am proud to have been involved!

Published: December 05, 2010 17:27 by Reyna Revista (who was at the occupation)

In response to Anarcho Type’s OP, I would like to clarify a few points.

Firstly, the article cited, “Nottingham Students Evacuate Great Hall after Successful Negotiations with University" was not written by the organisation doing the occupation. It was written by a writer for Impact Magazine, a student publication at the University of Nottingham, is her take on the events, and should be taken as such. The original article is marked and linked at the top of the blog post. It is wrong to assume the article's words are representative of the sentiments of the Nottingham Students Against Fees and Cuts as a Whole.

Secondly, the portrayal of the forum as a “cosy chat” seems to be a very biased picture of a formal forum for question and debate that brings together student occupiers with the Vice-Chancellor in a public sphere, not behind closed doors. At this meeting it has been established that no binding agreements will be made, but that the Vice Chancellor will feed back the demands of the NSAFAC to the Senate and Council, which ultimately make funding decisions. But although I suspect the occupiers do not believe that the higher decision making bodies will necessarily take on any of their concerns right aways, as others have said above, this is just a first step in establishing and maintaining a public show of opposition to the situation at hand until the concerns are addressed. Also, despite the fact that only NU students and staff are allowed inside the Great Hall, the immediate call for a pre-forum rally outside the hall clearly indicates an intention to continue fighting and resisting in a way that can continue to unify all concerned people from across Nottingham.

Thirdly, the OP states that the only negotiations they have had have been with security. This is flat-out untrue. The University Registrar himself came to the Great Hall on Friday to meet with the occupiers. There is footage of this accessible via the NSAFC Twitter page. The Registrar acts as Secretary to the Senate and Council.These are all the departments for which he is responsible. Now, if you are a student activist and you are hoping to make your voice heard at this University, the Registrar is exactly the first person in authority that you want to be talking to.
Lastly, it concerns me that as a self-proclaimed “Anarcho Type,” you are unable to cogently answer any of the questions posed to you by Sofia about what, if any, community activism you have engaged in that has had any significant impact or success in the way of lasting community-building or affected systemic decision-making and/or policy. Until you can provide evidence of this, I would strongly recommend limiting your commentary to more constructive and forward-moving sentiments as there is no evidence that you have been able to accomplish anything similar or as inspirational in your past.

Published: December 05, 2010 17:41 by A fellow occupier

I like the article it summed up my feelings when the debate was going on in the hall and it sums up my feelings afterwards. I absolutely see it as some students caving in under security pressure, however I do not think it was to play representative politics.

I would like to add that their was a division during the debate, and those that wanted to stay were going to break off from the main group however they gave us a guilt trip saying we were ruining it for those that wanted to leave. Sadly the number of occupiers willing to stay and voted on staying was less than those that voted to leave.

All throughout the occupation we had consensual democratic decision making process and it was seen as a show of solidarity that those that still wished to stay should leave with the others.

You need to understand that a lot of those occupiers were not fighting for the national movement or even political in their motivations; they were looking at the thing as a university issue and took whatever bone the management threw at them, because they were not focusing upon the bigger picture.

However - this is far from over, we are still organising and still motivated; the decision was took by the majority and we have to live with that and deal with the cards we've been dealt. This is not the last you've heard of nottingham student against fee's and cuts, far from it and I just see your whole article as negative and a unjustified, as it was not a unanimous decision to leave and long after the occupation had ended arguments were still being waged, it was however detrimental to nsafc to carry on these arguments so we dropped them, because it threatened the long term battle and that is what we're in it for, the long term struggle.

Viva la revolucion

Published: December 05, 2010 17:46 by Supporter from Notts SOS

I think too much can be made of one act and one decision to stay or go. I don't think anyone is going into the meeting on Monday with their eyes closed, especially after the wedding story has proved to be a nonsense. Since the university is saying this is explictly not a decision-making meeting noone need go in thinking they have to agree a single thing. The main thing, in my opinion, is to refuse to accept any dressing down or patronising attitude and also to avoid the NUS making any committments that may limit your campaign. The 4 day occupation was a great thing in itself as were the others around the country, but whatever the University says on Monday (even if they started lobbying the Russell Group immediately!!) it won't be over then or on Thursday when it's almost certain that the decision to raise the fees will be passed. Plus EMA and ESOL are being cut elsewhere in the sector and university staff are facing a below inflation pay offer and attack on pension. The main thing is that links have now been made with staff and students on other campuses and in colleges and schools some of whom were involved to a greater or lesser extent with the occupation or with activities at Nottm Trent in schools and colleages and in town.

The politics of all of this will need to be discussed and analysis but that's what you are doing, what we are all doing as part of the struggle. There will be plenty of opportunity to reassess tactics.

Notts Save Out Services http://nottssos.org.uk is also a diversity of views and not least contains a number of agendas that have yet to play out. I do hope students will continue to keep involved with the wider campaign in Notts and also to help build a permanent vibrant network of education activists in our city and county. This is something that could have happened after the Free Hich campaign but the momentum was lost over Christmas. We now have a real chance to create a radical culture in education here. This won't be easy and there will be many problems to overcome but let's go for it!

I also think that NSAFC could document all this somehow e.g. by means of a small publication.

Published: December 05, 2010 18:05 by Sofia

The occupation ending prematurely is also an issue of sustainability. Many were scared by security when there was no real need as we had all the power, numbers etc on our side. But there was also the burn out issue. There were too few people doing too much of the work. So what we need to learn going forward, is how to make our movements more sustainable, how to include and empower new people, and how to share all tasks.

One of the reasons that some of us felt burnt out and so proposed or voted to leave (despite really really really not wanting to) is that we hadn't slept at all and had not sat down or rested or eaten the whole time the occupation was going on. This was due to the fact that despite decisions being made by consensus, the cleaning, tidying, washing up, bin emptying, general shitty everyday jobs, were by and large not being shared at all, but we're being done by one or two females, while one or two males, who had done much less work, were, and still are, more than happy to chair meetings, and do media appearances.

This issue was addressed at the time and a conscious effort was made by all to get involved in tidying and to let new people facilitate meetings. Furthur, since the occupation ended, many more people have got involved in the organisational aspects of the campaign and many many more people are constantly getting involved which is amazing and fills me with conviction that we will definitely carry on building and getting stronger.

I just think that language like "cave in" is reductionist, simplistic, unhelpful and pointless. When what we should be doing is looking at the various reasons why it came to an end too soon, learning from them so that moving forward as we create these new spaces we are able to maintain them for longer and longer.

Published: December 05, 2010 21:37 by Joe Morris

I agree with Sofia.

Published: December 06, 2010 04:28 by Godmother

My original post on this string was a rushed, partially-informed and mis-judged response to the original unnecessarily negative article. Utmost respect to all involved. There is much to be positive about and much to build on.

Published: December 06, 2010 11:03 by Occupier

Maybe think before pressing send next time? Especially if you weren't actually involved with the occupation. Good to see those that were commenting back. IMO a lot more Nottingham anarchists ought to be practically involved with anti-cuts and anti-fees activity in general, otherwise the trots will dominate. And tomorrow night is Anarchist Against the Cuts Meeting - see events. Be there?

Published: December 06, 2010 11:36 by Godmother

!

Published: December 06, 2010 13:58 by The Outlaw

I am an anarchist & I was involved in the occupation + I think an anarchist commune donated loads of food.
It was not dominated by Trots or any political sect.

Published: December 07, 2010 10:56 by Godmother

Outlaw, you are entirely right.
To repeat and clarify: I retract my original comments and apologise. I was having a paranoid moment & should not have posted.